How Self-Managing Organizations Unlock 8-Figure Growth — Leon Van Der Laan | Why Founders Burn Out, Why Delegation Fails Without Structure, What Team Ownership Looks Like, How Mission Clarity Boosts Autonomy, How Self-managed Teams Drive Growth (#403)

In this episode, we explore how to grow an e-commerce brand without burning out. Our guest, Leon van der Laan, a seasoned coach and consultant, shares his expertise on building self-managing organizations. 

Learn how to step back, delegate effectively, and scale your business to eight figures and beyond with clarity and purpose. 

If you’re tired of chasing your team around to get things done and want to build an eCom powerhouse that manages itself, apply for a Free Leadership Audit on remode.company. 

Topics discussed in this episode:  

• Why scaling breaks when founders stay too involved. 
• How self-managing teams unlock 8-figure growth. 
• What the REMOTE framework does for e-com brands. 
• Why founders burn out after hitting 7 figures. 
• How clarity in mission boosts team autonomy. 
• Why delegation fails without structure. 
• How to know when it’s time to step back. 
• What true ownership looks like in your team. 
• Why fear of letting go stalls your business. 
• How remote-first leadership builds freedom and scale. 
  
  

Links & Resources 

Website: https://remode.company/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leon-van-der-laan/
X/Twitter: https://x.com/Leon_vd_Laan
IG: https://www.instagram.com/leon.van.der.laan/ 

Get access to more free resources by visiting the show notes at
https://tinyurl.com/2pmmb372 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] This episode is sponsored by Ahrefs, the all in one marketing intelligence platform. Trusted by SEO professionals, content creators, and digital marketers around the world. Whether you're doing keyword research, checking back links, or analyzing competitors, Ahrefs gives you the tools to make smarter marketing decisions.

Explore what Ahrefs can do at Ahrefs.com.[00:00:20] 

Hello and welcome to another episode of the E-Commerce Coffee Break podcast. Today we wanna talk about growth. Growing an e-commerce brand is tough. Any founder should burn out, feel stuck running everything themself. But what is the secret to growth and what can you do about it? So today we're diving into [00:00:40] self-managing organization to understand how they really work and how they can be the missing thing to scaling a brand to eight figures and more.

Joining me today is Leon van der Laan. He's a seasoned leader with over 25 years of experience in management and organizational growth. He began his career with 17 at h and m, eventually rising to C-level roads and overseeing teams up to three, [00:01:00] three and a half thousand people. As a former CFO managing about 200 million euros on e-commerce budget, and now as a coach and consultant, he has helped 30 plus founders with his remote framework.

And we wanna learn more about this, so that's why I come to the show. Hi Leon. How are you today? Hi, Claus. I'm great. Thanks for having me. Let's start simple. How would you define a [00:01:20] self-managing organization? An organization that's not depending on the involvement of the founder. Okay. So, and how does that help with growth?

Well, let's start with the beginning, right. An e-commerce brand, um, is as we know, e-commerce is very competitive environment. [00:01:40] And, um, I would say also the e-commerce founders are. A particular type of entrepreneurs they all have in common. They enjoy the hustle. They, they're very competitive. They're very much achievers, they're very driven people.

At least in my experience, and this is great. I call that the beast mode, [00:02:00] right? So every brand out there that's successful right now. Went through this beast mode, uh, episode. So, you know, zero to 10 people, uh, the first seven figures in revenue. Uh, it's all, it was just all hustle motives. And those founders are usually, well, they're not [00:02:20] always very seasoned.

They're usually younger people and, um, they don't have necessarily the experience of running a larger organization. So what they see happening is that they continue with these modes. Well into the eight figures. Micromanaging a team of 50 people, uh, yeah, doing a lot of revenue, but working themselves to [00:02:40] death and being pretty much the bottleneck and the operator in their own organization.

And that's not a sustainable recipe for the future. So when I come in, in the, uh, organizations, my goal is to get the founder out of the organization and turn them into a leader of his organization so that. [00:03:00] They, his team and his people has the right direction, the, the right workflows, uh, clarity, autonomy to go after the goals by themselves, and the founder can step back and do what they are good at.

And that is being the entrepreneur I. Mm. I can relate to that. And [00:03:20] I know that a lot of listeners, and also a lot of my friends have been in this situation. Some are still in this situation. Mm-hmm. And as exciting it is to start a company and being in peace mode, because actually it's fun. It's stressful, but it's fun.

Mm-hmm. Stepping back and reorganizing, and that's my experience with a lot of people that I spoke to is a very, very complex and difficult process. [00:03:40] Yes. So where do you start? Where do you start? It all starts with clarity. So if we have a, if clarity, if we have real long-term clarity forward, so we we're not just scaling what works, but we are scaling with purpose.

Um, the founder already gets peace of mind. Why? Because [00:04:00] not knowing what the future will bring, activates fear. Fear activates, let's work harder and more because then we will manage to keep up. But that's not a sustainable recipe, right? So we need to start building clarity towards the future. Who are we as a company?

Not anymore as like a transactional. [00:04:20] I would say drop shipping based e-com, uh, company. But okay, we are becoming a brand. That means we need to build a company around the brand, right? What's the long-term vision? Why do we do this? Who are we, uh, what do we want to achieve? And we translate that into mission venture values.

There's a reason why all five Fortune 500 companies have mission, [00:04:40] vision, values, and they say Abha is very corporate. I hear, hear a lot, right? Yeah. We we're not a corporate, we wanna stay startupy. Yeah, but every 14, 5, 400 company one day was a startup. Facebook was a startup, right? Sure. They didn't have mission, vision values at that stage 'cause it wasn't important.

You don't need mission, vision, values, uh, [00:05:00] from zero to 10 people. 'cause it's all about hustle, beast mode, getting things done fast, being faster than competition. Um, but you, you, you, you scale to a certain glass ceiling that way. And then founders lack the clarity. How are we going to go move forward? And that is where it all starts.

What are we going [00:05:20] to try to achieve as an organization? Not anymore, just my ambition as a founder, which is my ambition, which is good. Okay, but what is the organization going to do? Why should it matter for them? What we're going after? Mm-hmm. I think clarity is very, very important, but I think the first step for me would be finding the [00:05:40] right timing.

Basic. Basically knowing is like, oh, now, now it's enough, because a lot of founders run into burnouts and all this, everything that comes with this, and that's a very scary situation, not only for the founder, but also for the business. How do you determine, or at what point do your clients come to you? When do they find out?

Now it's the right [00:06:00] point to get help? Yeah. Yeah, great question. And even though I have outliers of brands that come to me when they're doing already, like 35 million or so, and I've had brands that do that come to me that do only 5 million. Right. Which is in the e-commerce world, not that much. It's like almost product [00:06:20] market fit.

I would say the sweet spot lies around, what I see the most happening is around 10 million a r. Mm-hmm. And around 10, 15 people in the team. That's when complexity really kicks in, right? If you're two people or two founders, you have one communication line. When you have four people, you already have six [00:06:40] communication line at 10 people.

This is 45 communication lines, so this grows exponentially, and that's why founders get smacked in the face almost. Why did everything work until three months ago and now everything seems to be collapsing. It's because they have not been adjusting fast enough to that [00:07:00] increasing organizational complexity.

And that sits around sort of 10, 15 people, mark around 10 million in a RI. Yeah. Now with this change founder, stepping back, concentrating on other things, a huge mind shift needs to happen also with the team because you managed micromanaging in the beginning and [00:07:20] that has to do a lot with, um, how you handle people and how the decision making processes are flowing and so on, so forth.

What's your experience and what's your approach to handling or doing this mind shift change, not only in the founder, but also in the team? Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think that the mindset shift needs to [00:07:40] happen around what delegation is about. 'cause in the early stage of an organization, delegation is basically making sure that the tasks are offloaded to people who, who get it done, uh, asap, right?

But the real delegation in a larger organization is not anymore about offloading tasks because that's very transactional, [00:08:00] right? You deliver a task. I pay you for the task or you, you, um, achieve a certain performance, you'll get an incentive, a bonus for the performance you're doing. Very transactional. We need to shift from being transactional to being more purpose driven, and delegation is the key tool there.

Why? 'cause [00:08:20] the real delegation is about raising ownership, creating ownership. Where the early days it was about offloading tasks, and I see that that's where founders need to make a mindset shift. I'm not here just to get things done. I'm here to get people feel ownership in what they do. And that is like [00:08:40] foundation of, of the self-managing aspect is when people feel ownership about something.

Because they're involved, their opinion matters, uh, they get the tools and resources needed to be successful. Then they raise autonomy. And autonomy is the, the main ingredient of a self-managing organization. Mm-hmm. [00:09:00] Yeah. So I would say that that's the most important. That's one of the important mindset shift.

There are more, and that is as a leader of, as a founder of e-commerce brand, I am driving the results, but. When I have to become a leader of my organization, [00:09:20] I need to build the environment in which the results are being driven. So that's, that's a shift instead of me driving the results. And I see this in all my e-commerce clients.

They are the ones who drive the results and our after people, but that, that's, that's only scalable [00:09:40] to a certain glass ceiling. And that's where the shift needs to come. I need to build a culture and environment with leaders in place where those results that I want to see are coming out of. And that's, that's the other shift that needs to happen in the founders.

For our listeners. Rewind. Listen to this twice. I think this is such [00:10:00] an important aspect that you mentioned there, and then it's very difficult specifically for first time founders. Mm-hmm. To get, get the idea right there. Now, I think fear missing, losing out on control might be something that holds them back in your frame.

In your framework, how do you deal with this? How do you sort of [00:10:20] coach your founder client mm-hmm. To get into the right direction? Yeah, great question. I, I have, I have two projects, uh, simultaneously parallel to each other. One is the remote framework, which is, uh, helping founders, uh, get into a logic modus of thinking where you break down a [00:10:40] inspiring purpose into a daily task.

Okay. So that is the consulting side of what I do on the coaching side of things. I go one-on-one with the founder and teach him delegation framework that, um, uh. You know, why, why do you have fear of letting go control? It's the same, like, [00:11:00] why is it scary to drive a car when you don't have a driver license?

Because you don't know how. So it's, it's super scary to drive a car not knowing how it works. You know, the gear shifter, the, the brake, the, it, it's all, it all creates fear and say, okay, I, I would rather not drive the same with delegation. [00:11:20] If you don't know, uh, how to let go in such a way that you still get what you need, then you would rather do it yourself.

So I can do, there are three reasons why people don't delegate one control. I don't trust others that they do it, uh, in the way I want. Two [00:11:40] perfectionism, I can do it better and faster. And three, they don't understand what's expected from them. Lack of clarity. All three are related back to the founder. So I coach them on this to give them a framework in delegation.

Um, based on four levels there, four styles of delegation. There's not just one style. There are four styles of [00:12:00] delegation, and every person in the organization need and tailored delegation style because they're, they're all in different development levels. One has a higher competence, one has a lower competence.

The other one is more committed, the other one is less committed. You need to adjust your delegation style towards them. And what I see with my [00:12:20] clients when they get that concept letting go, becomes a lot easier for them because they feel like they have a driver's license. And they know how to operate the car.

Let's take a moment to thank HRES for the free web analytics tool, a free privacy first analytics platform. It gives you a clear picture of your website activity, doesn't use cookies, and won't weight down [00:12:40] your pages. It's incredible, fast, easy to set up, and built by the same team behind one of the most trusted SEO tools in the world.

Best of all, it's completely free and included in hres Webmaster Tools. Plan, head over to hres.com/. A WT to sign up. You will find the link also in the show notes. Mm-hmm. I like the dig delegation is very, very difficult. [00:13:00] I, I've been through this process and delegating and I noticed from a lot of startup friends that I have, um, same problem.

Letting go. That's probably the most difficult part of this whole process. Now, when the founder is ready to start working with you, is there any kind of homework they need to do before they get started or how does it work? [00:13:20] Talk me through it. No, the, the homework will happen throughout the process. So, uh, I, I guide them in workshops and in one-on-one coaching sessions on what we are building step-by-step.

It's a whole process worked out over 12 weeks where we start basically with the beginning, why do we [00:13:40] exist, mission values. Then we go into what I call BIG, big goals, bold, inspiring, guiding goals, which are four goals. Over four different categories. Um, and goals should be frames because people don't respond to facts.

People respond to frames. That's why speeches [00:14:00] from presidents all over the world are rehearsed and written out upfront because they're frames. That's what people respond to. So goals should be frames too large, super ambitious. Smart goals don't work very well in an organization. They work for you as a person maybe, but not other organizations.

So we set goals, then we move to objectives and [00:14:20] key results. Then we, um, build a rasi metrics where we divide accountability, responsibility really clearly over the organization. And we're gonna also look into what are the organizational KPIs that are important for us. What defines success for us as a company as a whole.

Uh, and that's like a foundation, right? That's the basis of [00:14:40] every organization. What are we gonna achieve? Why we don't wanna wanna achieve that? How are we gonna do that? Who do we need for, uh, to get there, right? So that's what every organization should be able to answer. And then parallel to that, I coach the person on the leader mind.

It's literally called Leader Mind Coaching. Because [00:15:00] leaders are not born, leaders are not grown. Leaders are awakened. Everybody has a leader in him, but it needs to be shaken up, like wake up. And in the one-on-one coaching, this is what I help them overcoming limiting beliefs that they have as a founder that prevents them from becoming a leader.

[00:15:20] And, um, parallel to the remote framework, this helps to initiate the transformation. I wanna touch back on the beast mode, being in startup mode, working 24 hours, seven days following your dream, following your idea, growing your brand, and then you're growing to six, seven figures and your goal is eight, nine figures.

And it's a [00:15:40] little bit, again, on, on the timing of um, or on the topic of timing. When your founder is ready, um, they might have excuses, they might say, I don't have no to work on this. What, what's their time investment? You say it's a 12 week program. Mm-hmm. How much time do they set apart and are there any [00:16:00] changes between someone who's in this early twenties, first startup and somebody who is probably something older coming from a corporate career and start starting as a business?

Yeah. Um, the timing investment is around five to six hours per week. But, so the question is, what, what will it cost not to invest [00:16:20] in this time, right? Like it, it is compared to what you, what you get back, stepping out of the organization and having 80%, 90% of your time available to work on long-term vision, long-term connections, long-term goals, uh, without, of course, losing track of the day-to-day operation.[00:16:40] 

I had today's session with a client who said, like, I've been on the helicopter motors now for a few weeks, but things started to break on the ground and he felt, felt a little bit bad that he had to go down there and go in that department and fix stuff to get the performance back up. And I said, congratulations.

This is amazing that you're able to do that because three months ago, four [00:17:00] months ago, you were not able to do that. You wouldn't be able to jump from here to there and fix stuff. But now because you're out of the organization, you can land your helicopter wherever you want and wherever it's necessary.

And once things are fixed and back, back rolling again, you take off again and you see the whole battlefield, you see the whole play field in front of [00:17:20] you. So that is, uh, this is what you get. So you get from 16 hour days. You can still work 16 hour days, but you don't have to do the, to keep the organization running.

You can do it to brainstorm about your future, hire key players, build connections, [00:17:40] and, uh, not having to, I, I, I had this, this client, this week, potential client who considers to work with me right now. And, um, I said, so if you would step out of your business, what would break or nothing would break. Okay, but if you would step out of your business [00:18:00] for two weeks, oh, then everything would break.

So if you, if you have to step outta your organization and things start to break, that's where you know you need to work on your, on your leadership, on structuring your organization, uh, interesting motivation on the team. Um, this is your signal. If you can't step out of the organization, [00:18:20] it's, that starts with you.

The reason you can't step out of the organization is you. No. Totally. And if you have a long-term goal, an exit strategy, um, built to sell, I think is the key word there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but then you need to build a business that will run without you. And I've been in my professional career. Plenty of [00:18:40] stages where me or my business partners were in that situation.

And so what's your take on this and what, like a practical thing is, what's your take on not only, um, managing and delegating, um, but also physically stepping away. So not being in the office, working remote and and what's your take on that? Yeah. All my clients are remote, by the way, so I haven't [00:19:00] worked with a single e-commerce brand that has an office.

Um, so stepping physically away isn't, um, isn't. Hasn't been specifically an issue. Um, what I do see in clients is that they feel a little bit guilty in the beginning. Like, okay, I'm lying on the beach while my [00:19:20] organization is working. Yeah. But I always take this analogy. Look, the fact that you 10 plus million or even the mid eight figures that say something about you, you are a business athlete.

Okay, you're an Olympic business athlete because that's the level you're playing at. What do all athletes have in common? [00:19:40] Well, they're very disciplined. They're very conscious, resistant in their trainings. They train really hard when they train, but what do they also, they recover really well. They are really good at recovery.

Why the better I recover today? The higher chance I have on a peak performance tomorrow and the more peak performances I [00:20:00] stack on top of each other, the higher chance I have to winning the Gold Olympic medal. Right? So that is the mindset here that, uh, I think most of the founders that I work with have benefited so much from 'cause they realize, like if I'm on the beach with my notebook.

That's growth for my business because [00:20:20] tomorrow I show up actually a lot more energized, excited, sharp to get going and do the things that actually move the needle rather than just spinning the wheel. Yeah. And I think for a lot of starters, it's like working from a beach that's like the glorious version.

It's like, that should be the outcome. And then when they's coming closer, [00:20:40] they feel, they feel, feel guilty of being out at the, actually working from the beach because it's kind of a yeah. Conundrum there. Who's your perfect customer? What kind of brands do you work with? Uh, well, DTC um, brands, not drop shipping, although I have a client right now who.

Is in the dropshipping mainly, but moving towards a brand, [00:21:00] um, because a dropshipping business, I believe the nature of a dropshipping business is to be very transactional in, in the beginning. Right. Um, so it's brand DTC around 10, 15 people on the team. Younger founders. The, the oldest founders I worked with were probably like 35.[00:21:20] 

Um, because I think that, um. You, Klaus, you have seen the problems in an organization, you know? Yeah. And even though it would be good to have a sparing partner for more senior people like yourself, I think I add the most value to the younger, uh, generation. So I, I'm super personally driven, uh, [00:21:40] by being a person for them that.

I would have loved to have when I was in my early leadership career, you know, at age 23 I was running a warehouse of 250 people for h and m, uh, being a logistic director. And I made so many mistakes, you can't imagine painful mistakes. And I paid it with burnouts, [00:22:00] like severe burnouts, you know, and I just.

I just would love to be that person for them and to just help them prevent those burnouts and just feel excited about their business. And, um, yeah. I think it also because cultivating leaders like that is in the end also contributing to the greater [00:22:20] good because all the people in all the organizations I've worked with now in the past six, seven years that are probably hundreds and hundreds of people, they all feel a little bit more fulfilled.

They all feel a little bit more motivated, more engaged. They work in an organization that understands leadership and that really cares about, you know, the people in the [00:22:40] organization and that, that really drives me. That's really what, uh, what makes me continue want to do this. And I think the notion of giving back, and I can to completely, um, join you on this, this thought is, is very, very important.

Um, when I started in 2001 was a SaaS business. Uh, we had, we were lucky to have a business [00:23:00] partner, um, another business partner, a business angel who was helping us more with his experience and expertise than with his money. And that helped us, as you said. Um, I probably also have done every mistake in the book.

Uh, yeah. White hair, you know where it comes from. Burnout. Yeah. Yeah. Hello el old friend. So I know all of this. Um, yeah. But to a [00:23:20] certain degree, you can avoid this when you have the right Yeah. Person helping you, coaching you through the process and helping you in preventing, making stupid mistakes because other people have been there, so you don't necessarily need to make every mistake in the book.

Absolutely. Tell me about, um, the onboarding process and tell me how much it [00:23:40] is to work with you. Yeah, so I, it's very bespoke, uh, because not every organization is, uh, created the same. Um, but I, um. Uh, it starts, everything started in an audit. So I've developed this audit, which is like two times 90 minutes deep questioning session, uh, with me [00:24:00] on a call together with the founder's team.

You can add your senior manager there if you like as well. And it's like 36 statements that we walk through one by one, uh, where you give a score from one to 10 as a founder. And this is where we understand where's misalignment between the founders, what's well developed in the organization, what needs [00:24:20] focus.

I'm looking for flow and I'm looking for friction. Okay. And then there's a dashboard you can see very clearly in graphs where we see friction in organization and where we see flow. Uh, and then based on that, um, I tailor, um, I tailor our program. Um. Uh, with, um, an amount of sessions and with the [00:24:40] pieces of the remote framework, what's most important where we start with, where we follow up with, and then, uh, it's usually three to six months.

So the remote framework in itself, like three months length, uh, that's with two times per week a workshop, uh, with me one-on-one. And that's also with one time per week, a one-on-one coaching session. So you're, you're basically as [00:25:00] a founder twice per week, three times per week on a call with me. So it's, it's really intense.

But really transformative. After the three months, you do not recognize yourself and your organization back, but that's like the first phase, and then is really deeply embedding it into the organization. I. I call it remote mastery, becoming masters at it. And that's another three [00:25:20] months. Maybe scale down a little bit to speed and the intensity, but go really into tackling all the challenges and the friction that comes out of the organization.

You know, implementation of the clickup workflows that we have built together. 'cause I, that's what I also do. So mainly work with Clickup. Have a clickup pro in my team who helps the [00:25:40] my clients to build out an awesome. High performance workspace and clickup, um, where everybody could be, you know, is hold accountable.

Um, yeah. So in the, in the three months, we really make sure that everyone in the organization gets that. And then with some clients, even after those six months, we continue on a, the next leadership level. That's [00:26:00] where I start to coach, let's say the middle management, the head of media buying or the, the head of creative, right.

I also coach, uh, coach them then one-on-one, which is like the next level, and that leads me to have some clients with whom I've been working for two years even I. Because the company keeps growing. One client, really one of my most interesting [00:26:20] clients ever, was actually an agency. I do work also with BTC agencies.

They're German, actually. You, you might know them. E-com House, Daniel Bitman. Um, yeah, so I worked with them for two years. Why? Because they were like four people in the beginning. And now they're like a eight figure 50 people company. So [00:26:40] they have been going through all the stages of, uh, organizational leadership growth, and I was, uh, honored to be the guide to all those levels so it can even, you know, if you want a long-term, long-term commitment, uh, I'm there as well.

Mm-hmm. For our break comes to end today. Is there one final thought that you want to leave our listeners with? [00:27:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah. The final thought is that every number you're looking at. Whether this is revenue, profit, roas, mere percentage, you name it, all the numbers there, there is, um, is brains of people behind.

So take care of people and the numbers [00:27:20] will take care of itself. Okay, very good takeaway there Leon. Thanks so much for your time today. Where can people go and find out more about you? LinkedIn is my go-to actually, and this is where you can also reach out to me if you want an audit. Uh, there's links on there on my page.

I'm also on Instagram, but it's very hard to find me on Instagram, I guess. Um, [00:27:40] but you can also contact me there. Okay. I will put the links in the show notes, as always in your adjustment. Amazing. Click away for our listeners if you have the feeling. You have too many things on your plate. Your business is growing, but you hit some kind of.

Limit there. Then a coach, a guide will be the right solution for you. And then reach out to Leon. Now you will have a good communication with him [00:28:00] to get your business growing. Thanks so much for your time today. Thanks Les. It was a pleasure. Thanks again to hres and hres Web Analytics for supporting the show.

I. If you're looking for a clean, fast, and privacy focused analytics tool, try it for free at hres.com/awt. That's A-H-R-E-F [00:28:20] s.com/awt. You will also find the link in the show notes.

Hey, Klaus here. Thank you for joining me on another episode of the e-Commerce Coffee Break podcast. Before you go, I'd like to ask two things from you. First, please help me with the algorithm so I can bring more impactful guests on the show. It'll also make it easier for others to discover the podcast.

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