How To Future-Proof Your Ecommerce Strategy With Composable Commerce — Natalija Pavić | How A Composable Commerce Platform Enables "Commerce Anywhere", What Sets Composable Apart From Headless Commerce, Why API Performance Is Critical For Ecom (#383)

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In this episode, we dive into how to future-proof your e-commerce strategy with composable commerce. 

Our guest Natalija Pavić, Senior Director of Product Marketing at Kibo, explains the difference between headless and composable commerce, highlighting how businesses can implement an "integrated composable" approach that allows for incremental innovation without complete platform replacement. 

Natalija shares insights on how composable commerce enhances customer experiences through better API architecture, enables "Commerce Anywhere" functionality, and provides flexibility for both B2C and B2B use cases. 

Topics discussed in this episode: 

• Why composable commerce future-proofs e-commerce. 
• What makes composable different from headless microservices. 
• How "integrated composable" adds capabilities without replacing systems. 
• Why API performance is critical for commerce platforms. 
• How composable enables "Commerce Anywhere". 
• Why mid-tier companies can adopt composable with small teams. 
• What B2B dealer portals show about composable flexibility. 
• How AI powers commerce with generative promotions. 
• Why business drivers matter in composable adoption. 
• What makes well-designed APIs key for e-commerce’s future . 

Links & Resources 

Website: https://kibocommerce.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/kibocommerce/
X/Twitter: https://x.com/KiboCommerce
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/kibocommerce 

Get access to more free resources by visiting the show notes at
https://tinyurl.com/yvyukph8 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Hey there. This is Claus Lauter and you're listening to the e-Commerce Coffee Break Podcast, the show that helps you become a smarter online seller. In today's episode, we discuss how to future proof your e-commerce strategy with composable commerce. Joining me on the show is Nat Pavic senior director of product [00:00:20] marketing at Kibo.

So let's dive right into it. Hello and welcome to another episode of the E-Commerce Coffee Break podcast. In today's episode, we want to talk about something that we haven't talked about. It's a relatively new topic. We want to talk about how to future proof your e-commerce strategy with composable e-commerce.

Now, this is new. I said we haven't spoken about that and [00:00:40] I need an expert for that on the show. So joining me on the show is Nat Pavic. She's the senior director of product marketing at kibo and she is an expert when it comes to this topic. Um, she. Has a lot of background there and she will tell about us a little bit about this, and I wanna welcome our to the show.

Nat, how are you today? Hi Claus. Very, very nice [00:01:00] to meet you. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm delighted to be here. Normally, I don't let the guests tell their own bio, but Euros has quite some background and there's some very interesting, um, parts in that. So just tell me who you are and what you have done.

Well, thank you. So I, I, you know, as you mentioned already, I am [00:01:20] the new product marketing leader here at Kibo Commerce. Very excited to joining the company and the mission, but I've been in tech for over 17 years. I started very early, uh, when I was 19, coding, uh, at University for Medical Imaging. But since then I've worked at IBM, Blackberry, Cision pr, Salesforce, now kibo.

And I've done everything from selling servers to E-commerce. [00:01:40] E-commerce is obviously my favorite, most dynamic place, uh, I've landed and I just love it here. It's so impactful. Um, I also have, uh, three patents, one full patent, two that are pending. All three are AI based. So I'm as well an inventor. And I was a former, uh, founder and podcast host of the Commerce Cloud Innovations podcast at Salesforce.

[00:02:00] And so I will also be launching a podcast here at kibo. Very excited to, to bring that to you. So follow me on LinkedIn. Uh, look out for the launch in June, and that's the target line, and we're gonna have all kinds of thought leaders and speakers come on the show as well. So happy to be here. Great to have you here.

So now let's talk about e-commerce. E-commerce is changing fast. Um, businesses need to be [00:02:20] flexible to find up solutions that keep up with them, and we want to explore a little bit on what composable converse is, what it is, how it works, why companies should adapt to that. So just tell me, our listeners, what is compostable e-commerce?

Okay. So I think there's a lot of confusion in the market. You know, we are all, maybe, hopefully [00:02:40] everybody's familiar with what headless is, but I will define it in any case. So a lot of vendors will have a storefront that they will include in the package, and headless means that you implement the commerce platform without the storefront.

Meaning that you make your own, your own storefront or your own, um, you know, endpoint. And that can include mobile applications. It can include kiosks. So headless [00:03:00] comes in many formats. Composable is actually taking the. Backend sort of commerce platform and breaking it down. And so being able to purchase it in a sort of piecemeal or set it up in piecemeal way.

Now, some people will use composable in the wrong way and just say they have something composable. It's not, and some vendors will say that they have something composable, but then they have. [00:03:20] Their APIs aren't well architected and they require 50 more of the existing o to the point where, like of the existing object to the point where like you kind of need the whole platform to even have it work.

And so the question is, is it truly composable? Uh, so composability is something that sort of emerged as a need within the technical community because people were looking for, you know, I don't wanna go all [00:03:40] in with one vendor. I don't wanna be locked in. I wanna be able to pick and choose my functionality.

I want best of breed solutions. So it really rose from there, but where it's. Going is, I think it's going to be imperative in the future, and I think that there's lots of challenges along the way. I think people are kind of hitting some roadblocks in terms of the solutions that are available out there, which we are slowly [00:04:00] solving, I think, as an industry.

But it's going to be really important for the Newent future because we have, you know, agents don't want to go on your site and scrape the ui. They want to have direct access to APIs. And so composable solutions, by definition are well architected, have better APIs, so they're. More position, I think, to win in an agentic future.

So I think, you know, [00:04:20] garner has us in the trough aspect of the hype cycle, but I think we'll be key in making the agentic leap. And so I think composability is gonna become even more important moving forward for that reason, I. Now I remember about, I think it was about two years ago, hatless was the big topic.

Yeah. And everyone was jumping on Hatless and then sort of it went away. [00:04:40] I'm, I'm sure it's still there, but people are not talking as much on it. Um, you briefly talked about the, the differences. Now, how is it, or how can you move from either a, all in one platform or a Atlas platform into a composable architecture?

That's a great question. So here at kibo we have, uh, something that I'm sort of softly calling integrated. Integrated [00:05:00] composable, which means that you don't have to, you know, replace your all in one solution. Um, initially or even ever. Uh, so I think that there's a huge emphasis in the market in terms of like incremental innovation.

People just don't have the ability to do Big Bang transformations anymore, or they're, you know, being asked to defer those Big bang transformations. That's just not the reality anymore for like retailers [00:05:20] and brands and companies out there. And so, you know, what we offer is that you keep your all in one, but you can augment or.

Move some aspect of your all-in-one solution to our composable tech stack. And so you kind of get this like best of both. Like it's basically a spectrum. You can be all in one or you can be completely composable or you can be somewhere in between. And so really, you know, we feel that [00:05:40] customers need choice.

Um, this, it's just really how, the only way that they can innovate in this new environment where they're not being asked to rip and replace everything. Mm. I like the approach. Not every company grows in the same way. Um, there's different priorities. There's not a standard operating procedure to grow a company, and now it un composable.

If I understand you right, you [00:06:00] have the flexibility to start from different areas within your business using that. Can you give me some examples what that can be? Absolutely. I mean, look, we have a lot of, uh, microservices. So everything within the product is separated into microservices. Even if you're purchasing, you know, OMS or Commerce, there are joint microservices that are shared.

So you could, for example, just buy the [00:06:20] catalog or you could just buy the order management or the order and fulfillment management. Um, and you can have just that aspect of your, um, existing solution. Go into kibo. Um, you could possibly also, let's say you were buying our search. You know, we have this amazing vector search that not a lot of people know about.

Uh, and search is an interesting topic [00:06:40] because you have everything from synonym search, which is the most basic search to affinity search, which is highly personalized. A vector search is somewhere in between. And if we need to, I'm happy to define what that means, but. You know, you can sort of go far with that.

It's such an underoptimized resource for most, uh, retailers. Um, so you could possibly get that and get that with catalog [00:07:00] and be able to port over your catalog objects so you maintain your PIM or whatever you're using, but be able to leverage us for search, for example, with some light commerce features.

Um, so that's like, sort of like one way that you could do it. You could also do the same thing with subscriptions. You could leverage our subscriptions, uh, and then pull in some other features where you're just sort of. Mirroring what you currently have. So it kind of [00:07:20] works with kebo functionality. Um, so those are, those are all excellent examples where you can start to uplift and uplevel your current experience without having to completely re-platform.

Where do you see the point for business to really think about composable and go that route? It all depends. And I've even heard customers say they're actually chose [00:07:40] composable, chose headless because they had a skeleton crew, which was surprising to me. So you wanna have the ability to say, do post, you know, post-purchase order modifications so you don't lose the customer so you're reducing conversions.

So I would say probably middle tier, you probably are not gonna, you know, you're not gonna go compose with your mom and pop shop. So as you [00:08:00] sort of like. Move up market or your sort of mid tier, sort of mid tier company, that's sort of where you're gonna consider it. But actually your team doesn't have to be very big to go composable.

It used to be that you needed a lot of developers to be headless, but now with solutions like kibo, uh, and tools out there, you don't, you may need a few developers actually, because if you are building on React, which [00:08:20] is a more common framework, right, then you don't have to uplevel everybody on specific.

A vendor specific way of coding. You don't have to teach them a different language the way that you might might with some other vendors. And so you are actually gonna be able to tap into a bigger talent pool of developers that already are [00:08:40] writing React, no JS already creating headless applications. And so it might be easier for you to find the talent that you need and you don't have to invest in the training to give them access or knowledge to proprietary information.

And then you might have fewer developers because they're gonna learn and upscale that much faster. And I've actually heard that [00:09:00] sometimes templates. Slow people down. Uh, because in order to, you know, once you start to, to get into that, uh, okay, I don't want my site to look the same like everybody else is, you start to become more competitive.

Then you realize that existing templates may lock you in mm-hmm. To a certain look and feel. And your site may look exactly like everybody else that's using that same, [00:09:20] uh, that same system. So once you start to want to become more customized, more unique, have a different value prop, optimize for conversions, you start to actually hit a wall with templates.

Uh, so. This is where it becomes be. And you might actually customize those templates so heavily that now it becomes even more complicated to manage [00:09:40] around those templates, right? This is where you wanna like kind of break free from that. And that's where you wanna go ahead list and say, listen, here are the APIs, you know, here's our commerce, here's our commerce engine.

Let's get creative, let's have the site that we truly want, and then we can own our own architecture and we can port that site over if we ever wanna swap anything in the backend. No, [00:10:00] that makes perfect sense. A lot of brands want to go a different route and not being locked into a template. Which brings me to the topic of customer experience.

Now, obviously we were talking about a lot about the back end and what you can do there. How does composable Commerce help with the customer experience? I. Oh my gosh. Huge. And when you, and, and just wanna clarify when you mean about customer experience, are you [00:10:20] talking about post-purchase or are you talking about during the purchase?

During the purchase. During the purchase. So I'm, I'm really interested in this like Commerce Anywhere paradigm that's really taking off. I've even, you know, I've seen this a few years ago, I was talking about shopping on your tv. So, for example, now we have all these smart tv, you know, we're [00:10:40] moving away from cable, we have all these smart TVs, you know, we have Apple TV as an example.

Roku. So let's say I have my Apple tv, I have what's tied to that? My Apple wallet, my iCloud, right? So why can't I, during a commercial, just add something that I'm seeing to cart? This is where headless comes into play. If you wanna kind of enable those experiences, you need to have [00:11:00] really well architected APIs.

And there's a huge difference between being API first and being API performant what I call performant. So I'll give you an example. Let's say you have a catalog, API, depending on how that catalog, API might work, you might need every time you create a new category. It should have the capacity to [00:11:20] pull in the API for that category and automatically displayed for you on your website.

There are some platforms which I shall not name, uh, here where you create that new category, you create that new category, API, but your catalog, API, isn't made to serve up that information. So now in order to display the category of the front end, you actually have to [00:11:40] redevelop the front end, which is insane.

Right? And so this is the thing is that. People will just hand wave and say, yeah, we have APIs. Don't worry. We API first, A P first is not a useful category for me. Is it API Performant? Do your APIs function in the way that I expect it to? Because there's a huge difference between having an API infrastructure for Commerce [00:12:00] platform and you know, commerce has always been very dev heavy, front end heavy because of that front end aspect.

So you just need the APIs to function at a much higher level than they do for like mm-hmm. Say CRM or marketing or any other function that's not so. Data heavy, data driven, and so, so, so [00:12:20] front and center with the customer. 'cause if your site is down, you, you know, if your CRM is down, your marketing engine is down.

Okay? You're not spamming people with emails boohoo, but if your site is down, you're losing money. That's like your bread and butter. Um, and so I would really caution people to really go deeper into like how a PS functions when, when they're selecting vendors. And of course, you know, I wouldn't be [00:12:40] saying that if we didn't have excellent APIs, right?

So I always like do a little plug for Kub. I think that's a very important point that you make there. And I think, I don't think a lot of people, even developers, think about that, that it might not break on your side, but the API of your third party supplier cannot keep up and then the whole [00:13:00] process falls together.

So really, really important point there. Um, let's talk about the hybrid approach. What does that mean and how can you implement this? Yeah, so hybrid really means having your all in one solution alongside your composable solution. Um, and this is where we kind of start to, to get into like orchestration.

And you may [00:13:20] wanna think about an orchestration engine engine or what I call a backend for front end in addition to whatever your composable is, whatever your, your backend is. Um, but I think sometimes people get caught up in, uh, the front end battle. They'll say, well, this, this thing gives me five different front ends, and I want one front end.

Like, I'll give you an example. So, [00:13:40] you know, obviously because we're fully headless, uh, take a look at our solutions. We have B2B commerce and B2C commerce, but they're not separate products in reality. B2B commerce is really B2C commerce plus to mm-hmm. Microservices, uh, like account based pricing, you know, and contacts related to that account.

Um, and what's interesting is that [00:14:00] there's a ton of B2B commerce use cases, and the B2B industry doesn't think about them as, as. Commerce themselves as commerce, they think of themselves as this is a reorder portal, or this is a dealer portal is a very common one. Mm-hmm. Especially if you're a manufacturer.

Uh, and what happens is in those use cases, it's not a cut and dry e-commerce experience. You have relationships. It can be complicated. You have [00:14:20] buyers, influencers, you have five, maybe there could be five to 10 people influencing that, that decision purchasing decision. You have quoting, you have negotiated pricing, you have a whole bunch of different layers.

And you know, one use case that has come up is this concept of a dealer portal. Well. I want my, you know, the manufacturer may sell something. A great example is automotive, and I take a deposit for a new vehicle, [00:14:40] but I'm not the ultimate retailer. I'm not the ultimate seller that needs to go to a dealer, and the dealer needs to do fulfillment.

But the dealer is doing more than fulfillment. They're closing the sales cycle. Mm-hmm. And so think about that complex use case, and you say, well, the dealer needs to be able to log in and see their accounts and contacts. They also need to see their orders and they need to have almost like [00:15:00] OMS light functionality.

And like I'm, I feel like I'm like totally losing your question. I don't know if I'm even like answering your question, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna wrap it up and see this is relevant. But in that situation, you wanna think creatively and say, well then I need a dealer portal, and what is the solution that's going to support, where can I pull in a little bit of OMS and a little bit of e-commerce to create a [00:15:20] headless UI that is exactly.

What gives my dealers the control that they need, the insight that they need without sharing like, orders from other dealers, other dealers can't steal them, right? So we don't wanna give them full control. So sometimes you get into a, there's a ton of situations like this. Um, sometimes it's called micro sighting, right?

So micro siting could be the terminology for, like, I [00:15:40] have a lot of sellers that are independent. Um, and that could be a dealer, that could be, uh, an MLM. Right. That could be a doctor's office in the United States. That's huge. Um, so there's all kinds of unique use cases that we don't really think about as commerce that really benefit from headless, because headless gives you that flexibility to say, okay, well we're gonna keep using your existing system for [00:16:00] ERP or OMS, but now we need a dealer portal.

How are we gonna make that? And it's actually an e-commerce technology, which is, which is wild. Like that's the beauty about the e-commerce world in general. Is there's tons of industries and tons of places, and I used to do industry go to market, um, that don't think of themselves as, don't think of the solution as being [00:16:20] commerce, but in reality it is commerce.

Yeah. And if I may, if I may continue, I remember this during the pandemic, um, if you remember, there were pandemic vaccine synapse, right? And now if you remember, you went, you went to go in and you were like, okay, well I'm gonna book this appointment. And a lot of those systems were built on. Not on commerce, [00:16:40] tech stacks.

Okay. So, and how you could tell is, 'cause they ended up having to, uh, give you waiting rooms. So you were put in a waiting room because the system was overloaded. So when we think about booking and appointments, we don't think e-commerce. And so because we don't think e-commerce, we are brought. Down to the scale level and to a different system that is not meant [00:17:00] to handle the volume that e-commerce is gonna handle.

So like my big pitch at the time was like, why aren't we not, we should really be using an e-commerce platform to handle vaccine signups. Mm-hmm. Because think about it, what, you know, having a ton of people access your site is exactly like the holiday peak season. And what is the SY system of like, what is the [00:17:20] system that can handle the holiday peak season commerce platforms?

Right. And so, and what's great about commerce platforms, as you know, you can build anything on them, including bookings, right? So why didn't we just host that on e-commerce platforms? So, so that was a, that was a use case that I was like, kinda like really pushing at the time. But I don't think anybody, um, I don't think anybody executed on that.

That's just a, [00:17:40] that's just a, the downside of, of thinking ahead, I guess. But it's, it's a good example and I had a discussion this morning, uh, with someone who is. Running A DTC brand and he was adamant, he said, yeah, I only do B2C. And he's like, no, at some point you're also doing B2B, but you might not recognize it.

Um, [00:18:00] so, and I think that's the, the charm of being, having a. System like composable, which basically you compose your framework with the tools you need to grow, right? And as that e e-commerce has a strong backend can deal with a lot of traffic coming in, and I think that's a good solution for that. Now I want to touch a little bit [00:18:20] on ai, and I know you also have patent patents.

Um, yes. Tell me how much you can tell me about it and what do you think AI would do? I can tell you, yeah. I can tell you my first one, which is already out there, and you can, like, if anybody's interested, I have like, here's my patent cube in the background. But um, you can go on my LinkedIn profile and see the briefing that was actually, um, inspired by the automotive [00:18:40] industry.

So I spent some time working on automotive, like car buying, a car buying experiences, and I worked with a client who I shall not name, but they were really struggling with. Um, understanding whether or not their promotions were effective. Mm-hmm. And so they would, you know, as you know, people would like say, okay, let's, let's pull ahead these [00:19:00] car sales and let's give dealers $500 towards existing deals.

But then they, you know, they wouldn't be able to tell whether or not, um, they had actually created net new sales. Or if they just lost, lost margin because those, those, you know, sales were already gonna close and they just gave those customers a discount. And so they had no way to look at [00:19:20] their ROI. So actually, my first patent is really around generative promotions.

Mm-hmm. So how can we generate, uh, a promotion based on, uh, its highest ROI And so this is not. That personalized one-on-one promotions is distinct from that because we don't wanna create a situation in which we execute, we don't, may not have, wanna have in certain industries completely [00:19:40] variable pricing.

I'll give you an example. You definitely, like if you and I were shopping from the same grocery store, I. Don't wanna see a different price for bread than you, just because we're in a different socioeconomic bracket, like that's gonna start a revolution basically. Right? So there are definitely situations in which you do not want variable pricing.

And so for those highly regulated industries, what instead, what you wanna do is you wanna [00:20:00] do bucketing. And so you wanna still be able to say, define audiences qualifying criteria that everybody who falls in this qualifying criteria. It, you know, can benefit from this promotion. And so it was a way of understanding your audiences, bucketing them, grouping them in terms of our eyes, seeing if that promotion would stick, and then iterating on that and continuing to refine the [00:20:20] promotion so that they weren't a waste of money.

And I think in automotive industry is a huge place where they, you know, when I was talking to them, I realized that this was, um. That this was really a, uh, technical challenge. It, it was just something that they couldn't execute. It wasn't something that they were like inept at executing. They were truly missing a [00:20:40] piece of technology that they just didn't have.

Mm-hmm. To even understand promotion. So that was sort of my, my first AI based patent. Um, and the other was. I wish I could speak to that, but I can't until it's like, until it's pending, then I can speak to it. No worries at all. Let's come back to Composer Commerce. Um, obviously you gave already a very good overview what it is, how it works, what kind of [00:21:00] benefits and advantages it has.

What advice would you give to someone who wants to look into it as a beginner or has just some basic understanding? I think this is one of the situations where composable used to be really the domain of the technical. Consumer and the technical. Mm-hmm. Um, buyer. But it's moving more into the business domain and I think we really need to understand the business drivers [00:21:20] behind why you wanna go composable and how is composable gonna help you get there.

So I talked about incremental innovation is a huge one. Being able to access new functionality, um, that's a big. Being able to do innovation without overhaul. Mm-hmm. And also TCO saving, uh, saving on existing, you know, uh, existing software systems if you're sort of going with [00:21:40] a cheaper one or a more nimble one.

Um, I think if you are launching in a new area, especially if you're going into a new region where your current functionality may not support it or you might need extra. Different connectors, um, different gateways. That's an excellent time to take a look at. Maybe I can send up a composable site or you're doing a pop-up experience or a [00:22:00] holiday experience.

Sometimes bifurcating from your main site and creating a separate holiday experience or even creating two different experiences gives you redundancy, right? Um, it also, I. You know, make sure that your site might be faster. Composable and headless especially sometimes may operate, um, much faster than a traditional, uh, storefront and an all-in-one solution.

So [00:22:20] those are all excellent reasons to look at composable. And then just, you know, upskilling, upskilling, ongoing training, ongoing maintenance is also another reason to look at composable. Mm-hmm. Is there any kind of homework beside of that, that the merchant has to do to get started? I'll tell you one thing.

I mean, take a look at our OMS Buyer's Guide. We have [00:22:40] a ton of, and we also have KIBO Academy. So Kio Academy is amazing. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's all self-service, uh, online video oriented. Um, the trainer is Ty Sweet. So he is, um, an amazing employee here at kibo. Uh, so obviously you, you can come, come to me, ping me.

Not, this is not scary. [00:23:00] Right? And the information really is out there. We're part of the Mac Alliance. The Mac Alliance is really a good gold star of what's a good standard for composable and headless. And so you can take a look at those members that are part of the MAC Alliance and then I'm sure the Mac Alliance as well has a ton of meetups, a ton of, um, content and conversation.

Um, I will say a composable project is gonna require business and [00:23:20] tech team. It's not solely business, not solely tech. I think sometimes we get mired in like technical details, but we really need to. Stand back and think about the customer experience and what is the ideal customer experience that we wanna deliver.

So oftentimes, if you consider your customer's path as they're going through today, that's something I've done with a lot of clients is just like, Hey, what's your ideal path? [00:23:40] What's it like now? Where do we need to improve? And then that can really sort of give you good framework for where to add pieces, take away pieces, how to streamline your experience.

I like that you explained it with pieces. I'm a big fan of part bringing puzzle pieces together, so I like the flexibility there and that it really can create a solution that really [00:24:00] fits the seller of the brand before our coffee break comes to an end today. Is there anything that you wanna share with our listeners that we haven't spoken about?

As I'm here, I haven't been at Kiva for very long, maybe like a month. And I'm really, really so far impressed with the company and the product. Uh, there's a lot here that, you know, for example, PIM is a big one. So I think people are looking at PIM [00:24:20] in a new way. And I think that there's a lot of product discovery work out there.

This concept of product is my product discoverable. Is my product discoverable mm-hmm. By A GPT or an agent engine. Um. Can I publish to marketplaces? Marketplaces are huge. Um, can I take orders from marketplaces? Um, so those are all con considerations. And [00:24:40] so I think sometimes we get, uh, sometimes you may want best of breed for everything, but sometimes you may want just good enough because that good enough can get you so far, uh, without that ex extra cost.

Um, so I think those are, those are pieces for people to consider for sure. And obviously. Here at kibo we have those solutions. So I'd [00:25:00] highly recommend, you know, if you wanna reach out to me, talk to me, you know, I'm available on, on LinkedIn. Okay, excellent. Where can people find out more about you guys?

Kibo commerce.com. I should know. Uh, we are redoing their website, but, um, I'll, there's a lot of information there on my LinkedIn. LinkedIn, you know, dot com slash nat pc, um, and uh, on our LinkedIn social as [00:25:20] well, uh, with a handle, keep a commerce. So you feel free to reach out there. Cool. I would put all the links in the show notes and you just one click away.

And I hope a lot of people reach out to you and learn more about what you guys do and um, if they grow, they should go with you. Na, thanks so much for your time today. Um, let's stay in contact and thanks so much. Thank you.