How to Make SEO Profitable in 2024 (And How to Track if it's even Working) — Josh Piepmeier | Why SEO is Still Worth Investing In, Why SEO shouldn't be the First Channel for New E-commerce Brands, How to Target Keywords for E-commerce Sites (#310)

In this podcast episode, we discuss how to make SEO profitable in 2024 (and how to track if it's even working). Our featured guest on the show is Josh Piepmeier, founder and CEO of Meriwether at meriwether.digital.

Sign up to see if your SEO campaigns are profitable at https://trafficlighttracking.com/

Topics discussed in this episode:

• Why SEO is still worth investing in despite algorithm updates and AI.  
• Why SEO shouldn't be the first channel for new e-commerce brands.  
• How to target keywords with clear shopping intent for e-commerce sites.  
• How to track SEO ROI using GA4's landing page report under engagement.  
• How toOptimize product/category pages first for relevant shopping keywords.  
• Why to build content directly on Shopify, not on subdomains.  
• Why quality backlinks are important, but content quality matters more now.  
  
  

Links & Resources

Website: https://www.meriwether.digital/
Free Traffic Light Tracking  Report: https://trafficlighttracking.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshpiepmeier/


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t.ly/5GtTc


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Transcript

Claus Lauter: Welcome to episode 310 of the e commerce coffee break podcast. Today we talk about how to make search engine optimization, SEO, profitable in 2024, and how to track if it's even working. Joining me on the show is Josh Piepmeier, founder and CEO of Meriwether at Meriwether. digital. So let's dive right into it.

Voice Over: This is the e commerce coffee break, a top rated Shopify growth podcast dedicated to Shopify merchants and business owners looking to grow their online stores, learn how to survive in the fast changing e commerce world. With your host, Claus Lauter, and get marketing advice you can't find on Google.

Welcome, welcome to the show. Hello, 

Claus Lauter: welcome to another episode of Google's Coffee Break Podcast. Today, we want to find out how you can make your search engine optimization profitable for your business and what kind of SEO tactics are working right now. So I have an expert with me on the show, Josh Piepmeier.

He is the founder and CEO of Meriwether. Digital. Uh, just starting his career training under a top direct response copywriter, Josh. Transitioned into the SEO industry where he now applies direct response principles to drive profitable SEO campaigns. He has multiple seven figure campaigns under his belt in tough industries like CBD, vaping, health and wellness.

So let's dive right into it and welcome Josh to the show. Hi Josh, how are you today? 

Josh Piepmeier: Doing well. Thanks, Claus. 

Claus Lauter: Josh, everyone knows about the benefits of getting traffic through search engine optimization. That's not a secret anymore, but there's a lot of things going on. And to be honest, I need a bit of a refresher what's happening in the market right now, because yes, SEO is a good traffic source, but it's also a complicated one.

And I think a lot of people have a bit of a misconception, how it works, what kind of profit they can expect and how they can track it. So give me a bit of an idea. What's happening right now? Where are we standing in 2024 with search engine optimization? 

Josh Piepmeier: So right now at the time of recording, you know, sort of in May, 2024, we were just recently hit.

A lot of stores were hit with some algorithm updates. Um, actually stores came out on top for the most part, but there's been a lot of algorithm updates happening. AI is rolling out into search. Engines, people are using AI for content. So there's a lot sort of up in the air. A lot of questions around where are we right now?

How do we use AI? Is SEO even worth investing in or is it sort of dying out? And so I'm happy to get into it. We could go off into any one of those directions, but there is, there is a lot of uncertainty, but there's also a lot of opportunity. And so I'd really like to talk about some of that opportunity and then maybe get into how do you track it?

Because that's really important, right? When you're, when you're trying to invest in something, I think one of the most important things that I've heard from a lot of brands is they don't know how to track the return on investment. So how do we do that? And happy to get into that too. 

You 

know? 

Claus Lauter: Yeah, it makes sense.

Let's start with the tracking before we go into broader strategies. So my, my question is how actually can you set up a good way to really see what's paying off? From I don't content marketing technical SEO for me it seemed to be very very different and SEO is for some companies a bit of a side thought and because they cannot really track it.

So what's what's the way to do this? 

Josh Piepmeier: Yeah, so there's there's a few ways right and they vary from simple to very technical. Let's just start with simple because I think that that's the missing piece right now with with GA4. Sort of happening and people are still getting acclimated to it. A lot of what I hear is that, Hey, you know, a year ago, six months ago, probably a year ago at this point, I had a lot of visibility into what was working.

I had a lot of visibility into which specific pages were generating revenue, we're generating traffic, et cetera. And now I don't really know. So I think the first thing is just in GA4, if you go to, and I'll keep this high level, but like there's a landing page report. If you just go to engagement and then landing page.

That report is like the new simple version of the reporting. So you can just add a filter to that. I'll give you all of the steps on how to do that. All that kind of stuff. Um, if anybody who's listening to this right now wants to just sort of reach out to me on LinkedIn and be like, what was that report again?

I'm happy to send you a loom or something. But the short version is that that landing page report under the engagement section of GA four is going to be your new go to report for figuring out like which pages are actually driving revenue from SEO, and that's going to be the high level overview.

Obviously we can get more complicated with it, right? And that's something I do at trafficlighttracking. com. There's multiple layers of complexity here. And so if you want to get more detailed about, okay, how much of this revenue is coming from the actual SEO campaigns and how much of it is people that just saw an ad and then like searched for us online, there's a lot that you can do with that.

But just to keep it high level, the number one thing you want to look at to see is SEO driving an ROI right now. It's that landing page report. 

Claus Lauter: So what I hear from you, Google Analytics, GA4, the not so new version anymore, is your main tool. I think a lot of people, and that includes me after, I don't know, 15, 20 years of the old version, it was a bit of a tough step to getting into GA4 because it's so, so very different.

Now, from the strategy on how to generate the traffic with search engine optimization, and you mentioned a couple of things, content marketing, AI. What's a way to, to get started there if you haven't yet done yet? 

Josh Piepmeier: There is a couple of different steps here. The first thing is to realize what the priorities are and especially in e commerce, right?

Like I have, I have a background. I worked in B2B and SaaS content marketing for a while, and you can get very high converting blog pages with SaaS companies. And that's true to an extent in e commerce as well. Blog pages can actually convert much higher than most people think they do. But ultimately, like the number one pages that you want to rank are going to be your product pages or your shopping pages, your category collections, et cetera, you know?

And so, um, the first thing you want to do is just kind of take a look at those pages and say like, what is the best, what is this thing, right? What is the product that I'm trying to sell and how do I optimize it around what people are searching for? So, you know, what I see is somebody, let's say, let's say it's a, I don't know, a CBD company, and they have their, their puppy pain relief, you know, CBD chews.

Well, people aren't looking for puppy pain relief chews. What they're looking for is, um, CBD chews for dogs, right? And so if you take a look at your pages and you just sort of keep that in mind, as you're creating the copy and the content on those pages, and you sort of weave that into the copy, that's a good starting point.

Now, In today's sort of environment, that's not going to be enough to really get you ranking number one and crushing it, but that's a really good starting point. And once you do that, Google will start to recognize, Hey, this site is about CBD and for dogs, and then they'll eventually start to send you impressions and things like that.

And then once you hire or you bring somebody in who knows SEO really well, then you're going to have a really stable base. Foundation where Google says, Oh, you've been about this for five years. Cool. Now you'd have those last little tiny tweaks and we're going to put you to the top of the search engines much more quickly.

Right? So I think if you're just starting out, just having in mind when you're building out your site, the copy and the content, what is somebody actually searching for who doesn't know my brand yet? Cause those are ultimately going to be the most valuable visitors. That's how you get new customers, right?

Claus Lauter: How do you deal with e commerce stores that have a high number of SKUs, a high number of products, or just a very fast pace in changing products? Because obviously Google needs some time to index and to bring it really into the rankings. How does that work? 

Josh Piepmeier: There's a couple things there. The first part is very large catalogs.

Now there's patterns here. Usually if you have a very large catalog, either you have a very large, you're doing it all yourself, or. You're sort of integrating with third parties, maybe your third party marketplace, something like that. I'm going to assume that you're not a third party marketplace. And so we're just sort of talking about people that have built their own, like a big catalog over time.

Let's say like a Gymshark or something, you know, that's relatively big, not huge. You just kind of want to prioritize, right? And so this is the questions that I ask anybody that in the first week that I'm working with them, the first day that I'm working with them, I say, okay, what are your highest profit margin items?

What are the items that are the most sticky? Maybe it's not the highest profit margin, but it brings in more recurring customers. And then you optimize around that first. And then I think you said, what was the other thing you said? We were talking about the large sites and then there's one other thing.

Claus Lauter: It's either the large sites or the ones that have a product coming in and out in a high interval. 

Josh Piepmeier: Yeah. So, so that happens a lot with clothing brands. I see seasonality. And so in that case for clothing brands, I would recommend optimizing first around one or two core SKUs that are sort of perennial bestsellers.

Often I find that these clothing brands have at least two to three of those that are really good. Maybe it's like a t shirt that they sell often, or a lightweight jacket that they sell all year round, anything like that. If you have a few things that you sell all the time, optimize around those first, because that'll give you the stability that you're looking for.

And that's what you really want from SEO, is you want some stability. You want that sort of compounding growth over time that you're not necessarily going to get from a Google ads or a Facebook ads or something like that. 

Claus Lauter: Exactly. Yeah. Because Google ads, Facebook ads in the moment when they switch off, the traffic disappears, completely vanishes that big difference to SEO.

Now most of our listeners are on Shopify and Shopify's e commerce platform. Shopify has a block section in there for content marketing. What's your take when it comes to content marketing? Would you? Build that based on Shopify or would you use, I don't know, WordPress or any other platform to build up the content?

Josh Piepmeier: I'm actually a fan of just building straight in Shopify. If you're going to add WordPress, you have to build it on a subdomain. And, uh, I found that sites that use subdomains, we're getting a little technical here, but sites with subdomains, the subdomain usually doesn't perform as well as the core site, right?

So there's a little bit of a disconnect. So I would actually just build a straight in Shopify. If you want to add anything on there and you wanna get some more flexibility, you could add like a Shogun landing page builder, or there are a couple of new ones, I forget the names off the top of my head, and start to build out in sort of the slash pages section.

So if it's gonna be, you know, your site.com/pages, and then you have a lot of flexibility to go from there. So those are the two areas that I would build in. 

Claus Lauter: Hey Klossy, just a quick one. If you like the content of this episode, subscribe to the weekly newsletter at Newsletter dot. EcommerceCoffeeBreak. com.

I score and curate 15 news sources so you don't have to, saving your hours of research. Grow your revenue with ecommerce news, marketing strategies, tools, podcast interviews, and more, all in a quick three minute read. So head over to newsletter. ecommercecoffeebreak. com to subscribe. As said, 100 percent free.

Also, you will find the link in the show notes. And now back to the show. Is volume, means lots of pages, lots of blog posts, a key to get better rankings? And how much does AI help with that? 

Josh Piepmeier: There's sort of two approaches that I've seen. One of the approaches is You're going after authority from backlinks, right?

So if one site links back to your site, that's essentially, they're acting as a vote of authority. They're saying, Hey, this site is good enough that it's worth us linking to their site and potentially sending some of our visitors to their site. Right. And so. If you go after the mass backlinks, you get really high quality backlinks, you could do the digital PR side.

That's one area. The other way to go, and the area that I like to sort of focus on the most, is content. And so, creating more content does help in general, but you have to maintain a level of quality. That can be done with AI. But it sort of has to be very heavily edited AI. I think my tune on this has changed even over the last six months, six months ago.

I said, yeah, sure. You can use it just as long as you edit it. Now I've seen clients who, before I was working with them, did that for a while. They've been hit by algorithm updates. Okay. Um, I'm not afraid to, you know, so even a couple of my clients have with their in house writers, their in house writers were using some AI and they were hit.

And so now I'm saying, okay, we got to, Pump the brakes a little bit here. You know, let's look at how do we edit this even more? And I've, I've found that the readability of the blogs is really important, right? Like don't, if you, if you put it into like a Hemingway app or something, keep it at like a seventh grade reading level or below, that's, that's the biggest thing, uh, so it doesn't sound too complex because everybody's can see AI.

It sounds stuffy. It sounds a little technical sometimes, you know, so you want to make it more readable and human. 

Claus Lauter: Okay. I think it's a good point. Um, specifically when it comes to readability to keep it easy, but brings me to the question was, everyone knows that for a long time, keywords are key to SEO, keyword research, LSI keywords, and so on and so forth.

How do you implement that into a e commerce strategy? 

Josh Piepmeier: I'll actually talk about one of my clients for this. I'm going to keep them anonymous, but we'll talk about them in big picture here. They came to me and they thought that they had done a pretty good job of optimizing their products. And so they said, Oh, you know, we keep it, we've kept it in mind.

We've optimized this around, you know, let's say, uh, CBD gummies or something. Well, it turns out that the intent. bore CBD gummies, short tail was a little bit mismatched for the pages that we're trying to rank for. So instead they had to optimize the page around, okay. CBD gummies for something else. Maybe it's CBD gummies for pain, right?

And so let's go that just that little bit longer tail and you find some keywords that actually have intent that aligns with shopping pages. Now within that page, there's going to be the LSI keywords. And so I think when, when a lot of people think LSI keywords, They think sort of secondary keywords or variations of that core keyword.

Right. And so, yeah, you want to naturally work those into the page. You can use tools to help with this, something like a surfer SEO. But I think the most important thing when we're talking about how do you build these into the shopping environment is to make sure that the core keyword that you're targeting actually has shopping intent.

And a really easy way to do that is to just sort of brainstorm, Hey, what are the keywords I'm thinking about? And then search in Google and see what pops up. If it's a bunch of shopping pages, you're probably good to go. If it's not. And you probably want to target something else. 

Claus Lauter: Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely. Makes totally sense. Which brings me to the question. I get a ton of inbound emails from linked building companies and I don't know, Fiverr gigs whatsoever that are reaching out that we do not going for any of these because I know SEO, as you said, is a quality Thing and you need to have a good understanding on what the brand is, what the product is, what's your approach, what are your process steps when you start working with a client to to get up to speed?

Josh Piepmeier: The first part is just sort of a basic audit. We come in, we have an interview and we say, okay, what are the most important things to you? And then we'll start with an audit. Now, I think audits are a little bit overblown in the SEO industry. Everybody comes in and they give you the super comprehensive audit.

And it's like, almost like the goal is to put as many things on the list as you can. Then you're just like, boom, I have a spreadsheet. It's got 2000 rows. We crushed it. You know what I realized, you know, and I've, I've done this with a client. I did this with clients in the past where I would give them these huge spreadsheets.

Hand it off to their internal team and none of it would get done. Okay. And then I would push and push and we'd finally get through it. And really about 20 percent of the stuff that we were doing was driving 80 percent of the results. And so I said, how do we just find that? How do we find the 20 percent that's just going to drive the 80 percent of results?

And so the first thing we're going to do is we're going to check on the basics of the site, right? Like, is it fast? Do you have a plugin that's creating a ton of extra pages that you don't want to be there? Happens a lot on Shopify, surprisingly, you know, um, anything like that, fix that 20%, try and implement it and then do another round, right?

It almost always needs a couple of rounds of implementation to be completely fixed. So we get into it very quickly. We do an audit, we get into that. And then as soon as the audit is done and we're implementing some of that technical stuff, then we get started on the content side, looking at the copywriting on the pages, content in the blogs, content marketing, all of that sort of stuff.

Claus Lauter: I think it's a, it's a very straightforward process there. Now you mentioned right at the beginning of our talk that there's a lot of uncertainty what's happening with search engines, um, how much AI will take over or people will change their search behavior. What's your take on that? 

Josh Piepmeier: Looking into the future.

There's a couple of, we got AI attacking from two sides, right? So on one side we have AI creating content and then on the other side, now we have Google. using um, SGE, which is search, I think search generative experience or something. I forget what it even stands for. Summarizing search results when you search things.

Have you seen that class? I don't know. I don't, I don't know if it's fully rolled out to everybody yet. 

Claus Lauter: I think they're busy doing this. Um, and on top of that, I just read this morning that Gemini, so Google's AI will be part of the Chrome browser now, so you can basically search. So I think that's, that's, that's on top of what, what you just said.

Josh Piepmeier: Yeah, exactly. So essentially Gemini is getting plugged in. And so if you search anything on Google, there's automatically going to be an AI sort of summary for you. And so you kind of have to optimize for both realities, right? And so we already talked about AI content a little bit. So let's talk about when Gemini is baked in.

What does that look like? Because if you just have sort of a summary of the search results up top, people are going to be clicking through to results less and less. So really, the game now is How do you become part of that summary and how do you become part of what Google thinks is the most important information they have?

They have three sentences to send somebody. They have maybe a paragraph. If you want them to talk about you in that paragraph, what do you have to do? Right? And so I think the short version is. You just have to be one of the most prominent players in the space from an SEO perspective, whether that means that, you know, you look at best of lists and you have CNET and you have, uh, Wirecutter and you have all of these big brands.

Can you get on those lists? Can you get on those lists repeatedly? Right? So that's more of an affiliate play. Or can you come up for so many different searches within your little niche or sub industry that you are almost synonymous with the term. So if you want to come up with, you know, e commerce podcasts, what are some of the best e commerce podcasts you need to come up for every term around e commerce podcasts.

So how do you start one? What are the best ones? Uh, what should you learn? How do you prepare for one, right? All those sorts of things. 

Claus Lauter: Okay. Now it makes perfect sense. And I think it brings us back to quality. You need to provide quality content. And that's also what Google is looking for, uh, and then continue like that.

So I think it's an interesting time. SEO was always interesting. How much time and effort should a e commerce brand invest into? SEO. And I think if you're a smaller brand, you probably don't have the resources. What's your take on that? 

Josh Piepmeier: Yeah, I actually think so. SEO should not be the first channel that you invest in.

Probably maybe not even the second or third. Right. So when you're starting up, keep SEO in mind as you're building the site. Maybe do a once over, make sure everything is relatively fast. Your images are optimized that you have, again, some of those keywords in mind as you're building your site. And then usually the playbook that I see happening is they get meta ads or some sort of ads on lockdown.

Uh, sometimes now it's turning into more of an affiliate play or maybe like, you know, influencers make sure that you have the backend set up. So email, SMS, all that kind of good stuff. Sometimes you add, Layer on a little bit of CRO on top of that. And then SEO comes in because if you really have one or two core channels that are working, you want to double down on that and make sure you're not losing out on any of that opportunity.

Once you have that all in lockdown, SEO is by far your best opportunity. You could start to expand in advertorials. You could, you know, try and find more niche influencers, things like that. But ultimately SEO is going to be like the biggest lever that you have after you've done sort of the core things that you sort of think about when you think e commerce.

Direct to consumer. What are the sort of playbooks that you think of? No, it's Facebook. And I'm willing to accept that. You know? 

Claus Lauter: Yeah, absolutely. Who's your perfect customer? Are there specific industries or niches that you work more with? 

Josh Piepmeier: I think that my ideal customer is somebody who's been working on SEO for Usually quite frankly, a year or two.

I think the unfortunate reality is that a lot of the people come to me. They say, Hey, we've been working on SEO for a year or two. We've had two other agencies. We gave them the time we gave each of them a year. Nothing has really happened. We've seen the traffic go up, but we haven't seen the results. We haven't seen the revenue.

What do we do? And then they come to me and there's usually just a few things that we can change and, um, we get results within. You know, three to six months, which is a lot shorter of a timeline than SEO normally takes. So, um, my ideal client is usually somebody who's been working on SEO for a while. They usually have had some success with SEO, but not, not, not a crazy amount.

It's not really generating the return on investment that they would like. It's not really comparable to other channels. And they just need that strategy layer to sort of unlock the next level of growth. 

Claus Lauter: Can you give me an example of a brand, you don't need to say the name, that you worked with, what kind of results they saw after implementing a proper SEO strategy?

Yeah, so I actually will talk about a brand. 

Josh Piepmeier: So I have, I have, um, go ahead to share some of these details. So like Nuragan. com. They were a CBD brand that came to me. They were obviously CBD, tough space, right? SEO is like one of their only options. So that was the primary thing for them. They'd been working on it for a while.

They were getting probably around 400 new customers a month. They were relying heavily on wholesale and white label deals. And they said, Hey, we want this direct to consumer part of our business to take off. Uh, they'd been working on SEO. They had a great team, great content, great website, amazing product, like dream come true.

They were still, they hadn't moved the needle. Within six months, we had quadrupled the number of customers they were getting across the entire business, like the direct to consumer. So they went from getting 400 new customers a month to 1600. They actually got up to 2000 in November and then have sort of averaged a little lower since that sense.

So I'd say about on average around 1600 new customers a month. And, you know, that was a great success story, but again, it follows that playbook. Right. So they had done a great content. They had been associated with CBD for a long time. Uh, they had everything that they needed. We just had to make a few of those tweaks to get some of those high converting pages ranking.

Claus Lauter: Awesome story. How does your pricing structure work? 

Josh Piepmeier: Usually it's on some sort of ongoing retainer. There is a couple of options. We have one outsource director of SEO is sort of one of the big ones. We do have some done for you options as well. And it's just a recurring thing. Usually it's a minimum of three months, just because for SEO, you do want to see it work, uh, you do want at least three months to make it work.

But it's, we're not going to lock you into a year long contract or anything. Right. We do want to show you some of those, those relatively quick results, especially if you've been putting in the work, we're a little bit on the premium side of pricing, so it can range anywhere from four grand a month to, you know, 10 or up, depending on the results, right?

10 or 10 plus is definitely for a brand that's getting more aggressive and wants to go after some big numbers. 

Claus Lauter: Yeah, but I think it's completely understandable. You need to have the expertise, the experience, you need to be on top of what's happening in SEO, and therefore you need to have an expert there.

Josh, before we come to the end of our coffee break today, is there anything that you want to share with our listeners that we haven't covered yet? 

Josh Piepmeier: Yeah, I think there's a quote from Warren Buffett. I think that has been in my mind a lot lately. It's be greedy when others are fearful and fearful when others are greedy.

So, uh, you know, that's sort of an investment strategy right now. A lot of people are afraid of SEO. They don't want to invest in it. They don't want to touch it. They're running the other way. I think right now is the perfect time to invest in SEO because if you invest in it right now, when everybody else is sort of running the other way in two years, When we talked about, Hey, how do you get to the, become synonymous with your industry in two years, you have the opportunity to get that started now.

So when AI is in every household, everybody's using Gemini, little kids are on their phone using Gemini. You are synonymous with your industry in Google's eyes. It's the perfect time to start. 

Claus Lauter: Good point, good point. Where can people find out more about you? 

Josh Piepmeier: Traffic light tracking.com. That's where I have a, a giveaway that shows you a little bit more advanced strategies for breaking down how profitable your SEO's campaign is.

Um, so you can check that out. Again, traffic light tracking.com. Otherwise on LinkedIn, Josh, Pete Meyer, traffic light tracking is probably a little bit easier than my last name. Uh, but if you wanna look me up on LinkedIn as well. Josh, Pete Meyer. 

Claus Lauter: Okay, cool. I will put the links in the show notes and you just one click away.

Josh Piepmeier: Josh, 

Claus Lauter: thanks so much to give us a really up to date overview of SEO and how you can be successful going forward. Um, I hope that a lot of listeners will check you out and then get into a right SEO strategy. Thanks so much for your time today. 

Josh Piepmeier: Yeah. Thank you. It's great to be on. 

Claus Lauter: Hey, Claus. Yeah. Thanks for joining me on another episode of the e commerce coffee break podcast.

Before you go, I'd like to ask two things from you first, please help me with the algorithm so I can bring more impactful guests on the show. It will make it also easier for others to discover the podcast. Simply like comment and subscribe in the app you're using to listen to the podcast and even better.

If you could leave a rating. Thanks again. And I'll catch you in the next episode. Have a good one.